Author Topic: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)  (Read 1015 times)

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SiCk PuPpY

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The car is a 30,000 mile 1997 M6 T/A. I was in the middle of a heads/ cam upgrade when I discovered the cam bearings were toast. I was going to leave the bottom end alone. But now that the motor is out of the car, i've decided to upgrade with forged pistons and rods.

Here are some of the current mods:

-Vortech V-1 Supercharger (currently 6lbs)
-Crane Fireball ignition w/ retard control
-NX Express kit (50-150 wet shot)
-Custom Ground Comp Cams Xtreme lobes 224/236 dur 502/520 lift (1.5
ratio) 115 LSA +3 degrees of adv. ground in
-Jet-Hot long tubes (coated)
-Random tech Y-pipe w/ dual cats
-Ported heads/ Intake (flowed 251 and 194 @ .500 lift without a pipe)
-Manley valves and Combination Motorsports spring kit
-SVO 42 lb "green top" injectors
-Racetronix 255lph PnP Walboro pump kit
-SPEC Stage III clutch

*I will be most likely be using PCMforLess for the tuning*

My questions are listed below. I am purchaing the Probe -13.8cc 9.4 to 1 forged pistons and Probe 5.7 full floating forged rods. I going with these pieces because I can get them through a local dealer for $550:

-How much can the stock crank take? Has anyone ever broken one?
-Should I overbore the block to a 355? Would the gains be worthwhile and what are the drawbacks? (harmonics, crank stress?)
-How much additional boost can I run on the S-trim before I exceed the capabilities of my fuel system, valvetrain, and stock crank? (The car must be able to pass emmissions). The blower is currently spinning at 35,000 when the motor is @ 6,000 rpms. The unit is good to 55,000 but stops making boost around 50,000.
-Should I do a partial fill with hard-block to stabilize the block (would this
cause overheating in a F.I. motor)?


Sorry about the long post, but I ned to get my plan of attck in order before I take another step forward. The car has been down for over a year; I've been deployed to Iraq and am just now working on getting it back together. I really miss rowing the gears!

Thanks in advance and cheers!
JD

Juddidiah

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2005, 01:11:30 pm »
Here's my view on the subject;
-How much can the stock crank take? Has anyone ever broken one?
There is no magic number, but I would leary to push it much over 450ehp.

-Should I overbore the block to a 355? Would the gains be worthwhile and what are the drawbacks? (harmonics, crank stress?)
I would say to bore it.030" over, mostly just to give your new parts a fresh surface to seal to. The gain of 5ci is negligible. I'm not aware of any drawbacks. There are many people who run full .060" overbore, and run them harder then your planning on running your motor. I've never heard harmonics being a concern on a .030 "overbore. Crank stress should be no different than a standard bore. Again i've never seen this discussed as a concern.

-How much additional boost can I run on the S-trim before I exceed the capabilities of my fuel system, valvetrain, and stock crank?
Stock fuel system with upgraded injectors should be able to support 550ehp (full boost) (especially if you have an upgrade pump, and you use a FMU)
Valve train should be fine with good lifters, RR's springs/retainers (nothing too fancy needed). I know you've already got some nice valves, and a great head guy.
Seeing that you asked twice on the limitations of the stock crank, I would recommend just spending the $200 and getting a scat 9000, there are some people pushing those to nearly 700hp. I think running the compressor past ~10psi (i.e. 450ehp. Good tune required) )would be questionable.
The S-trim maxes out at 1000 cfm, which I calculate to ~14-15psi for your 350.


Goody_Seven

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2005, 08:20:48 am »
 :stupid: I agree on everything except the crank.  I don't think cast is the way to go here.  If you want to chance it on a cast crank, I would chance it on the stock one.  The one thing that I don't think you are figuring in on your 700hp cars is that JD will have about 100hp of side load due to it being a blower.  I think forged would be ideal, and I feel that cast is cast no matter who puts their name on it JMO.  I think Scat only claims 500hp on their 9000s.

Offline gofast

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2005, 09:02:59 am »
Funny, I was just talking about factory GM cranks with a friend of mine at the track over the weekend. A factory cast GM crank will take about 400hp. Ironically, someone did break a crank over the weekend. It was a factory crank and the damper hung off the front like the front journal broke.  :eek6: 

I agree with what's already been said about upgrading your crank. Pay the little extra for a forged crank if the money can be found. Nothing worse than building up a nice setup and then having the weak link take a crap on you and ruin everything.
'92 Mustang LX - Broken Trans...
'07 Raptor - N2Oh my hell this is fun...
'94 VMax

Juddidiah

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2005, 10:19:13 pm »
Totally agree, scat does only rate them to ~500hp. Most people usually just tweak when they see cast for $200, and forged for $500. Agreed that forged would be the best, but as always the concern of cost was keeping my thoughts cost effective.

Goody_Seven

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2005, 09:49:46 am »
Totally agree, scat does only rate them to ~500hp. Most people usually just tweak when they see cast for $200, and forged for $500. Agreed that forged would be the best, but as always the concern of cost was keeping my thoughts cost effective.

I agree, but why not use the stock one?  I can understand if it was a stroker because you have to buy a crank.  Is the scat9000 a $200 upgrade from the stocker?  I say no

CompTA

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2005, 10:10:24 am »
I have to agree with goodie on this one. If your going in there do it right the first time. I have learned that one the hard way. And yes I have broken a stock crank and it broke exactly as gofast 68 describes. I ended up having to go to a 396 crank because of the damage it caused in the skirts and the main caps/bearing seats.

If you going this far, and already thinking of getting +.030 pistons, and contemplating the whole crank thing, why not just stroke it now? Your doing all the work to stroke it, then leaving it as a 355.

Just a sugestion, it wouldn't be THAT much more.

SiCk PuPpY

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 06:43:37 am »
I have to agree with goodie on this one. If your going in there do it right the first time. I have learned that one the hard way. And yes I have broken a stock crank and it broke exactly as gofast 68 describes. I ended up having to go to a 396 crank because of the damage it caused in the skirts and the main caps/bearing seats.

If you going this far, and already thinking of getting +.030 pistons, and contemplating the whole crank thing, why not just stroke it now? Your doing all the work to stroke it, then leaving it as a 355.

Just a sugestion, it wouldn't be THAT much more.

What would have to be done to the block to clearance it for the stroker?

neat

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 08:04:53 pm »
It's nothing drastic.  My old 383 had a little groud off the bottom of the cylinders, and a little off the oil pan rails.  Just about 1/4 of an inch to clear the rod bolts.

If you are planning on selling the car you have to weigh the cost of a stroker, with the "ohhh ahhh" factor selling a S/C, nitrous, 383 will get you.  I think you'd be able to re-coup the couple hundred bucks it took to make it a stroker.

Overbore.  Here's my take, from a BDR perspective.  Mic the cylinders and if they're within .008 or so, leave it alone.  More than that, go with a .010, or a .030 over bore.

Stock crank.  Again from a BDR perspective.  Leave the stocker in there, throw it on the dyno when you're all done and pulley it until it makes 515 or so RWHP.  That'll probably be mid-high 400's uncorrected up there in the clouds.  If you plan to keep the car, and want to go beat on it, then the forged crank might be worth it.  For the 1500 miles a year that car see's right now, I dunno.

You're fuel system is good to go.  Big injecotrs and that pump will support some prety good power.  I dunno exactly how much, but there are some big power LS1's with similar set-ups.  If you buy some kind of scanning tool, you should be able to monitor your injector pulse width.  Keep your injecotrs below 85% duty cycle or so and you'll be fine.  I really doubt you'll max that pump out, especially in UT.  I dunno, maybe though.  Check around and see what kind of HP a single walbro can support.

Block fill.  Prolly over kill for you.  A 1/4 fill might not be a bad idea, but I really don't think you need it.  I don't think you'll run into cooling problems.  If you do, they can probably be corrected with a radiator and fan combo.

If you decide to stroke it, my only hands on experience was my red vette.  It had a cast SCAT crank in it and everyone told me it would handle some pretty serious power.  That engine was supposedly built to take a 250 shot of dope, which should of put it up around 800 RWTQ, and 625 RWHP or so.  Wether it would of taken it or not I dunno.  I think you'll be fine with a cast crank, but if it's only a couple hundred bucks to go to a forged crank, why not do it?  Cast parts have come a LONG way since the 60's.  Most people you talk to are stuck in the mindset that all cast parts are weak.  New ZO6's have cast pistons hung on freaking titanium connecting rods.  Don't get me wrong, newer cast parts still aren't forged, but they don't deserve the horrible reputation their ancestors gave them.

Last thing, when asking around on the net, remeber it's a lot easier to spend other people's money.  People will always recommend the high dollar safer/better option.  It's up to you how much of a risk you are willing to take.   if it were me, I would of pullied that  thing like a madman, and hit it with an eleventy billion shot of juice, just to see how much it would take.  I also would of broken it in the first week.  So take anything I say with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 09:36:42 pm by DaBo_Z28 »

SiCk PuPpY

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 10:30:53 pm »
Ha ha, you know me better than anyone.  I still plan on selling the car after it's finished, but I want it to be right.  Balancing that with keeping the money situation in check is pretty difficult.  I already have over $2,200 into the modification proccess, and haven't even bought the pistons/ rods, machine work or tuning.  I think i'm gonna draw the line after the forged rods/ pistons and keep the boost below 8 lbs non-intercooled.  If I don't get close to 500 rwhp on a 50 shot, i'll  be very surprised.

Hell, If I go with a 383, then I'd "have to" get splayed caps.  Then the injectors wouldn't be big enough. after that, I'd have to swap out the blower head, and on and on and on.....  I want to break even with this car, which means it going to have to sell for around $18,000 after everything is said and done.

Thanks to neat for keeping this project in perspective (you have a P.M.).

Offline BBB

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2005, 01:04:24 pm »
Ok J.D. reality check time here.  If you are going to sell it after you have it done what is the issue?  Put new rings on the pistons and new bearings all around.  Put new fasteners in the mains (I would use studs), and unless anything else looks suspicious put it back together, put the blower back on that you have now and sell the damn thing.  If you want to tell the prospective buyer that he can run alot of boost then put forged pistons in the block and have it machined to .030 over and leave it at that. 

Tell the buyer that the combo will be reliable to 450 rwhp and could maybe run 500 for a very short time and I think that would be the truth. 

The only reason you would want to splay, stroke, fill, bore, forge, etc would be if you wanted this combo to sit in your garage for 30 years.  I reality you have only a couple of months to get this done before it has to be back together for your move to texas.

Do the sensible thing and move on.

BBB

Goody_Seven

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Re: Changing direction on the F.I. Heads/ cam upgrade (need advice)
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2005, 08:35:26 am »
Ok J.D. reality check time here.  If you are going to sell it after you have it done what is the issue?  Put new rings on the pistons and new bearings all around.  Put new fasteners in the mains (I would use studs), and unless anything else looks suspicious put it back together, put the blower back on that you have now and sell the damn thing.  If you want to tell the prospective buyer that he can run alot of boost then put forged pistons in the block and have it machined to .030 over and leave it at that. 

Tell the buyer that the combo will be reliable to 450 rwhp and could maybe run 500 for a very short time and I think that would be the truth. 

The only reason you would want to splay, stroke, fill, bore, forge, etc would be if you wanted this combo to sit in your garage for 30 years.  I reality you have only a couple of months to get this done before it has to be back together for your move to texas.

Do the sensible thing and move on.

BBB

This is true, if you are going to sell, just get it running again and let it go.