Author Topic: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....  (Read 1512 times)

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Offline NVMYZ28

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Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« on: January 15, 2010, 08:21:12 pm »
After MUCH research.... I've discovered that I've been doing it wrong.... for years......

I've always set my pinion angle based on my driveshaft angle and pinion angle (which is what the spohn torque arm instructions say)..... however, I also have a nasty vibration coming from my drivetrain (my '94 had it, but it wasnt bad at all - but worse after a spohn torque arm install vs stock torque arm....), this '97 has it bad.

I think this is the solution.... pretty good read about how to setup your pinion angle correctly:

http://buickperformance.com/Pinion.htm

I've read this in multiple places now - but they only explained it as "you need the pinion yoke parallel with the tailshaft of the transmission", which is not necessarily the same as your driveshaft vs pinion yoke.

The idea is that the tail shaft of the transmission and the yoke of the pinion should be 100% parallel to achieve true 0* pinion angle. If these are not parallel, vibration will occur due to the driveshaft not being able to rotate cleanly / freely, which also wears out U-joints, and also reduces horse power to the wheels!

Tomorrow I will be going out and buying a digital angle finder, and finally getting my pinion angle setup correctly. I'm curious to see how bad it is, I'll bet its pretty far off right now.... getting im off "0" by at least 6 degrees or more. When I installed the torque arm, my pinion angle was set to a -2 based on my driveshaft -- pinion yoke measurements.




See also: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143858

'05 Yamaha R1
'06 Yamaha Raptor
'08 Pontiac G8 GT

Offline NVMYZ28

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Re: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2010, 08:21:36 pm »
Just incase this website nukes this info, posting it here:

Myth #1: The pinion angle somehow affects how much traction the car
will achieve.

Straight Scoop: No way. The pinion angle doesn't mean squat as far
as the rear suspension is concerned. Think about it: why would the
suspension care about u-joint angles? What determines the "hit" on
the rear tires and the rate and amount of weight transfer is the
intersect point of the upper and lower rear bars (control arms).
That's known as the "instant center" (IC), and combined with weight
distribution, spring rates, and shock valving is what affects
traction.

Myth #2: You increased the pinion angle and the result was increased
traction, so Myth #1 must be correct.

Straight Scoop: You haven't been listening. Pinion angle doesn't
affect traction. What happened is you shortened the length of the
upper bars and that changed the intersect point, moving the IC
farther forward. You also screwed up the pinion angle in the
process. If you want to change the length of the upper or lower
bars, or change their mounting points, that's fine. But after you're
done you've got to go back and check and properly reset the pinion
angle.

Myth #3: The garage floor is the correct reference point for
measuring the pinion angle.

Straight Scoop: You've got to be kidding, right? The garage floor
doesn't have anything to do with anything. What's important is the
drivetrain angle. It so happens that professionally built racecars
are constructed so that the crankshaft is parallel to the floor,
meaning that the transmission output shaft will also be parallel to
the floor. But this usually doesn't hold true for cars using a
factory chassis. In most of those cases the engine is tipped
rearward. Take a look under the hood of your Buick and you'll see
what I mean. The drivetrain angle is the reference point and is
considered to be zero.

How to Measure It: The best way to do this is with the car supported
on jackstands, with stands under the front control arms and rear axle
tubes, with the full weight of the car resting on the stands. Next,
it's best to remove the driveshaft. Using an angle finder (these are
available from Competition Engineering or at Sears Hardware stores--
they're a commonly used carpenters tool), measure across the surface
of the rear transmission seal vertically(see illustration 1). This
surface is perpendicular to the output shaft of the trans, so
subtract the measurement from 90 to get the drivetrain angle. Let's
say that the measurement is -2 degrees(pointed down). That is our
reference point. Look at illustration #3. The pinion angle is the
difference in the angle of the rearend to the angle of the
drivetrain. So, in order to have zero pinion angle, the rearend
would have to be tipped upward (pinion yoke pointing upward) 2
degrees. If our drivetrain angle measured -5 degrees, we'd have to
tip the rearend upward 5 degrees to have zero pinion angle. Get it?
Now turn the pinion yoke so that the u-joint cups are sideways, and
measure across one side of the pinion yoke vertically(see
illustration 1) where the u-joint strap connects. Again, this
surface is perpendicular to the pinion, so subtract the measurement
from 90 to get the rearend angle. compare this number to the
drivetrain angle to get the pinion angle. If the drivetrain angle
was -2 degrees(pointed down), and the rearend angle measured +1
degrees(pointed up), then the pinion angle would be -1 degree. If
the drivetrain angle had measured -2 degrees (pointed down) and the
rearend angle had measured -3 degrees (pointed down) then the pinion
angle would be -5 degrees. In my particular case, the drivetrain
angle measured -4 degrees, and the rearend angle measured -6 degrees,
resulting in a pinion angle of -10 degrees, a wasted tailshaft
bushing, and a slower than necessary racecar. The idea is to have
the pinion angle at zero with the racecar under power and going down
the track. To allow for suspension movement and loading, the pinion
angle should be at around -2 degrees for our cars.

How to Adjust It: You can purchase adjustable upper or lower control
arms from a variety of sources, or you can weld washers to the
factory control arms and re-drill the pivot holes in a new location,
or you can cut and weld the factory control arms.

How important is all of this: Well, excessive pinion angle can bind
the u-joints up pretty good and rob quite a bit of horsepower. It's
not at all unusual for a car to pick up 2-3 tenths and as many mph
after getting this straightened out. Also, excessive pinion angle is
often the real culprit behind broken parts. Racers love to attribute
busted driveshafts, exploded tailshafts, and cracked bellhousing to
the raw torque and horsepower produced by their motors, when in fact
it's usually a problem with driveline geometry. It's definitely
worth checking before you break something expensive. See you in the
lanes!!
'05 Yamaha R1
'06 Yamaha Raptor
'08 Pontiac G8 GT

Offline NVMYZ28

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Re: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 08:21:54 pm »
FIXED!!!!!

So I went to sears today and bought a digital angle finder, and made the adjustments (this angle finder is good to 0.1 degrees accuracy)

To start, I tried to figure out the best place to measure the angle of the output shaft of the transmission.... my Y-Pipe is right in the way of any chance of getting my new angle finder vertically against the end of the tail shaft housing, and I didnt want to remove my exhaust. So, I found that the mounting point for the clutch slave cylinder would work as its parallel to the output shaft tail housing.

I removed the clutch slave cylinder and is aluminum spacer/bracket, and then removed the drive shaft from the rear end yoke. (I left it plugged in to the trans).

Here are the angles I found (car was not 100% level, but pretty close):

Lets say this is the Front of the Car: | engine slope: / and this is the rear end yoke slope: \

Transmission: / 86.3* Rear End: \ 88.9* (90* being perfectly vertical).

Thats a net difference between the rear end and transmission output shaft of 4.8 degrees!!!!!

I sucked the torque arm adjusting nut in a bunch, swinging the rear up quite a bit, and now I only have a net diff of 1.7 degrees.

Put everything back together, took it for a spin up to 90.... and the vibration is 98% GONE. I'll bet if push the yoke up just a touch more, this thing will be 100% smooth as silk.

I'm glad I can put this one to bed! This plagued me in my '94 (enough that I sold the spohn torque arm), and now has plagued me in my '97, but its finally FIXED!

Hopefully this helps someone else sometime....

P.S. If any of you after market torque arm manufacturers read this - please add a note to your instructions to indicate that pinion angle should be set relative to transmission output shaft, and not the drive shaft. Drive shaft angle is irrelevant if the pinion angle and transmission output shaft angles are significantly off.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 08:26:29 pm by NVMYZ28 »
'05 Yamaha R1
'06 Yamaha Raptor
'08 Pontiac G8 GT

Offline The Sad

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Re: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2010, 12:35:27 am »
Nice.  Glad to hear you got it fixed.  I need to figure out my pinion angle one of these days.

The SS looks like it could kick your ass, the WS6 looks like it's coming over to do it!

99 Trans Am WS6 - a few mods ;)
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Offline NVMYZ28

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Re: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2010, 01:30:16 pm »
If you dont have an after market adjustable torque arm, you probably dont need to worry about it.
'05 Yamaha R1
'06 Yamaha Raptor
'08 Pontiac G8 GT

Offline The Sad

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Re: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 11:33:16 pm »
I do, that is the problem.  I can't ever seem to get the angle right :(

The SS looks like it could kick your ass, the WS6 looks like it's coming over to do it!

99 Trans Am WS6 - a few mods ;)
06 YAMAHA Raptor
06 YAMAHA R1
01 Honda CBR F4i - track bike
99 Dodge Ram 3500 dually - 'Goliath'

Offline NVMYZ28

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Re: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 09:45:10 am »
Yesterday I put the car back up on jackstands, (just the rear this time, w/ the rear loaded), and brought the wheels up to speed in 6th - I kept running it up to 90+, making small adjustments to the torque arm -  I was able to dial it in even better (getting it set based on the angle of the output shaft on the trans was the biggest improvement though).  If I made 1 full turn either direction (about 1 degree change in pinion angle) with the spohn torque arm adjusting nut, the vibration was back.  I was making 1/4 turn adjustments to dial it in.

With the solid spohn torque arm mounts, poly mounts for and solid mounts for the QA1s, I think its as good as its going to get (its TONS better than it was though).
'05 Yamaha R1
'06 Yamaha Raptor
'08 Pontiac G8 GT

Offline kagato

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Re: Have driveshaft vibrations? Look in here.....
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 11:47:46 pm »
Glad you got it sorted Jeff.  This topic has been fresh on my mind recently since I got my UMI Torque arm and am going to be putting it in soon.  Researched it myself a little while ago and found some controversy like I am sure you have seen.  Found this writeup too and it made complete sense to me that angle itself doesn't affect traction and how some people come to the false conclusion that it does as well as its importance for driveline geometry only.  Strange that manufacturers don't even have it sorted out, I called UMI the other day to get some suggestions on the settings for my relo brackets as well as the Torque arm front mount and asked them straight up which way to measure it and the guy still said measure off the driveshaft!  :Unexpected:
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 11:48:19 pm by kagato »
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